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Main
Date: 17 Aug 2006 09:42:17
From: Tony
Subject: Ale vs. Lager
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Is the only difference between an ale and a lager the following?:
1. Yeast type
2. Fermentation temperature
If so, could I take a recipe for a lager, substitue an ale yeast and
ferment at 60 - 72 degrees F (I found that temperature range for ales -
not sure if it is accurate...) and produce an ale? Thanks.
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Date: 17 Aug 2006 09:58:41
From: wpattison
Subject: Re: Ale vs. Lager
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Tony wrote:
> Is the only difference between an ale and a lager the following?:
>
> 1. Yeast type
> 2. Fermentation temperature
>
> If so, could I take a recipe for a lager, substitue an ale yeast and
> ferment at 60 - 72 degrees F (I found that temperature range for ales -
> not sure if it is accurate...) and produce an ale? Thanks.
I was told by my LHBS that you can even ferment a beer w/ lager yeast
at ale temps. It just won't have the properties of the lager.
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Date: 17 Aug 2006 23:38:11
From: David M. Taylor
Subject: Re: Ale vs. Lager
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"Tony" <theworldwillendin30days@mail.com > wrote in message
news:1155832937.197320.325910@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
> Is the only difference between an ale and a lager the following?:
>
> 1. Yeast type
> 2. Fermentation temperature
>
> If so, could I take a recipe for a lager, substitue an ale yeast and
> ferment at 60 - 72 degrees F (I found that temperature range for ales -
> not sure if it is accurate...) and produce an ale? Thanks.
The only fundamental difference between "ale" and "lager", IMHO, is
fermentation temperature. There has been some recent debate that suggests
lager and ale yeasts are not actually different species, but one and the
same. The difference between the two are that lager yeasts have become
specialized over the centuries to ferment well at low temperatures, whereas
ale yeasts usually tend to go dormant at low temperatures. But before
lagers came along, all anyone ever did was warm fermentations with wild
yeast, which is all the same stuff, Saccharomyces cerevisae (sp?). Lager
yeasts were just the specialists at lower temps. Call it survival of the
fittest, natural selection (except in this case, it was unnatural
selection because people were purposely cellaring the beer as it fermented).
That is the only real difference.
What Scott Sellers said in another response about ales tending to be more
fruity, and lagers being more often associated with Germans and whatnot, is
historically
true. However, the differentiation of what is truly an ale and truly a
lager is much more fuzzy nowadays, when it's becoming commonplace to make
ale-like lagers (steam beer), or very clean ales (kolsch or Scotch ale), as
another fellow mentioned. Is a steam beer a lager, or an ale, or both, or
neither? Personally, I'd say it's more like an ale than it is a lager.
Nevermind that it uses a yeast that was originally intended for lagers.
It's still beer yeast, and it's fermented warm, so it sure ain't a lager,
even if it uses lager yeast. The word "lager" means, to store, as in, to
keep it in a cool cellar for a long time.
I'm sure many people know this while others do not, but, it is possible to
brew lagers with ale yeasts. In fact, homebrewers and pros alike have won
ribbons and awards for their beers using ale yeasts in lager recipes. Is
this really possible? Under the right conditions, with the right yeast
strains, you betcha.
I believe the line between lager and ale will continue to become fuzzier,
until eventually, maybe another 300 years down the road, perhaps everyone
will just call it "beer" and be done with the "ale" vs. "lager" argument.
Beer is beer. Some styles are traditionally fermented cool, and some warm,
but they all use brewer's yeast, and they all end up making beer.
Don't even get me started on the argument of "top-fermenting" vs.
"bottom-fermenting" yeast. What a load of... yeah. Don't get me started.
--
Dave
"Just a drink, a little drink, and I'll be feeling GOOooOOooOOooD!" --
Genesis, 1973-ish
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Date: 18 Aug 2006 16:12:00
From: Scott Sellers
Subject: Re: Ale vs. Lager
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David M. Taylor <dmtaylor@SPAM.geocities.SUCKS.com >:
[...]
>What Scott Sellers said in another response about ales tending
>to be more fruity, and lagers being more often associated with
>Germans and whatnot, is historically true. However, the
>differentiation of what is truly an ale and truly a lager is
>much more fuzzy nowadays, when it's becoming commonplace to make
>ale-like lagers (steam beer), or very clean ales (kolsch or
>Scotch ale), as another fellow mentioned. Is a steam beer a
>lager, or an ale, or both, or neither? Personally, I'd say it's
>more like an ale than it is a lager. Nevermind that it uses a
>yeast that was originally intended for lagers. It's still beer
>yeast, and it's fermented warm, so it sure ain't a lager, even
>if it uses lager yeast. The word "lager" means, to store, as
>in, to keep it in a cool cellar for a long time.
>I'm sure many people know this while others do not, but, it is
>possible to brew lagers with ale yeasts. In fact, homebrewers
>and pros alike have won ribbons and awards for their beers using
>ale yeasts in lager recipes. Is this really possible? Under
>the right conditions, with the right yeast strains, you betcha.
>I believe the line between lager and ale will continue to become
>fuzzier, until eventually, maybe another 300 years down the
>road, perhaps everyone will just call it "beer" and be done with
>the "ale" vs. "lager" argument. Beer is beer. Some styles are
>traditionally fermented cool, and some warm, but they all use
>brewer's yeast, and they all end up making beer.
I enjoy lagers and ales. Since I brew mostly ales, when I go out
I usually order lager. I think beer, like food, is based in
region and in history. IMO, you shouldn't reduce or abstract it too
far away from that. I mean you can, but in doing so, you set
aside much of the value.
I think alot of what the craft beer movement (or whatever you
want to call it) is about is recognizing and respecting the
variety that is out there. We don't have to choose one over the
other. We don't have to drink bud and pretend that it must
somehow be the best beer.
To me, lager isn't a recipe, or even a technique. It's a whole
range of amazing brews, out there in the world, which I hope to
taste.
Vive la difference!
cheers,
Scott S
--
Scott Sellers
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Date: 18 Aug 2006 14:20:02
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Ale vs. Lager
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On Thu, 17 Aug 2006 23:38:11 -0500, <dmtaylor@SPAM.geocities.SUCKS.com > wrote:
> The only fundamental difference between "ale" and "lager", IMHO, is
> fermentation temperature. There has been some recent debate that suggests
> lager and ale yeasts are not actually different species, but one and the
> same.
Debate by who, biologists or "internet experts"?
John.
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Date: 18 Aug 2006 14:40:53
From: Joel
Subject: Re: Ale vs. Lager
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John 'Shaggy' Kolesar <spam@shagg.net > wrote:
>On Thu, 17 Aug 2006 23:38:11 -0500, <dmtaylor@SPAM.geocities.SUCKS.com> wrote:
>> The only fundamental difference between "ale" and "lager", IMHO, is
>> fermentation temperature. There has been some recent debate that suggests
>> lager and ale yeasts are not actually different species, but one and the
>> same.
>
>Debate by who, biologists or "internet experts"?
Last time this question came up, I posted this:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.brewing/msg/a1f0176e6babbb0b
with a link to this:
http://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/jbb/96/1/96_1/_article/-char/en
It's not a simple matter.
--
Joel Plutchak "Sometimes I think we're alone in the universe, and
plutchak@[...] sometimes I think we're not. In either case the idea
is quite staggering." - Arthur C. Clarke
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Date: 18 Aug 2006 17:22:02
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Ale vs. Lager
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On Fri, 18 Aug 2006 14:40:53 +0000 (UTC), <plutchak@see.headers > wrote:
> John 'Shaggy' Kolesar <spam@shagg.net> wrote:
>>On Thu, 17 Aug 2006 23:38:11 -0500, <dmtaylor@SPAM.geocities.SUCKS.com> wrote:
>>> The only fundamental difference between "ale" and "lager", IMHO, is
>>> fermentation temperature. There has been some recent debate that suggests
>>> lager and ale yeasts are not actually different species, but one and the
>>> same.
>>
>>Debate by who, biologists or "internet experts"?
>
> http://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/jbb/96/1/96_1/_article/-char/en
Interesting article. They don't really say that ale yeast (S cerevisiae) and
lager yeast (S pastorianus) are the same thing. They do suggest that there
is a lot of overlap in the different Saccharomyces species. Some of what
they say actually suggests that lager yeast and wine yeast are relatively
closely related. However, the conclusion at the end seems to suggest that a
lot of the difficulty in telling them apart is in naturally occuring (IE wild
yeast) strains, and that strains isolated for industrial purposes (IE, what
we buy for brewing) are usually selected for unique characteristics, rather
than being hybrids.
Probably way more information than the original poster was asking for
though.
John.
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Date: 19 Aug 2006 07:37:26
From: David M. Taylor
Subject: Re: Ale vs. Lager
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"John 'Shaggy' Kolesar" <spam@shagg.net > wrote in message
news:slrneebj9f.ef9.spam@weizen.shagg.net...
> On Thu, 17 Aug 2006 23:38:11 -0500, <dmtaylor@SPAM.geocities.SUCKS.com>
> wrote:
>> The only fundamental difference between "ale" and "lager", IMHO, is
>> fermentation temperature. There has been some recent debate that
>> suggests
>> lager and ale yeasts are not actually different species, but one and the
>> same.
>
> Debate by who, biologists or "internet experts"?
I heard it from a pro-brewer, and I agree with the notion. For me, it's
more common sense than anything else. It's the same thing I recently heard
about dogs, that they are actually the same species as wolves, not two
different species. There's hundreds of different varieties of dogs but
they're all still dogs. Likewise, there's probably hundreds of different
cultures of people, but we're all still human. Different cultures might
have taken different evolutionary paths for thousands of years, but we're
all still basically the same. What's it take to make a new species, anyway?
Is there a biological reason (number of chromosomes, percent of shared
genes, or something else significant that is measurable), or is it really
just a biologist's expert opinion? Maybe it's not a debate so much as it is
gut feel. Take it for what it's worth... about 2 cents maybe.
--
Dave
"Just a drink, a little drink, and I'll be feeling GOOooOOooOOooD!" --
Genesis, 1973-ish
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Date: 19 Aug 2006 13:26:43
From: Wheat
Subject: Re: Ale vs. Lager
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"David M. Taylor" <dmtaylor@SPAM.geocities.SUCKS.com > wrote in message
news:7CDFg.226$FF1.49@newsfe03.lga...
> "John 'Shaggy' Kolesar" <spam@shagg.net> wrote in message
> news:slrneebj9f.ef9.spam@weizen.shagg.net...
>> On Thu, 17 Aug 2006 23:38:11 -0500, <dmtaylor@SPAM.geocities.SUCKS.com>
>> wrote:
>>> The only fundamental difference between "ale" and "lager", IMHO, is
>>> fermentation temperature. There has been some recent debate that
>>> suggests
>>> lager and ale yeasts are not actually different species, but one and the
>>> same.
>>
>> Debate by who, biologists or "internet experts"?
>
> I heard it from a pro-brewer, and I agree with the notion. For me, it's
> more common sense than anything else. It's the same thing I recently
> heard
> about dogs, that they are actually the same species as wolves, not two
> different species. There's hundreds of different varieties of dogs but
> they're all still dogs. Likewise, there's probably hundreds of different
> cultures of people, but we're all still human. Different cultures might
> have taken different evolutionary paths for thousands of years, but we're
> all still basically the same. What's it take to make a new species,
> anyway?
Here, this should clear it up for you! g,d,r
Species
A group of organisms, minerals, or other entities formally recognized as
distinct from other groups. In biology, the species is a group of actually
or potentially interbreeding natural populations, reproductively isolated
from other similar groups such that exchange of genetic material cannot
occur (the species barrier). Most species cannot interbreed with others;
those that can, typically produce infertile offspring. This biological
concept of the species cannot be applied to fossils, or to organisms that do
not reproduce sexually. These species are defined on a comparative
morphological basis.
> Is there a biological reason (number of chromosomes, percent of shared
> genes, or something else significant that is measurable), or is it really
> just a biologist's expert opinion? Maybe it's not a debate so much as it
> is gut feel. Take it for what it's worth... about 2 cents maybe.
>
> --
> Dave
> "Just a drink, a little drink, and I'll be feeling GOOooOOooOOooD!" --
> Genesis, 1973-ish
>
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Date: 20 Aug 2006 15:55:45
From: David M. Taylor
Subject: Re: Ale vs. Lager
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"Wheat" <kotosho@netscape.net > wrote in message
news:576dnSLrHvWc6XrZnZ2dnUVZ_oOdnZ2d@comcast.com...
>
> Here, this should clear it up for you! g,d,r
>
> Species
> A group of organisms, minerals, or other entities formally recognized as
> distinct from other groups. In biology, the species is a group of actually
> or potentially interbreeding natural populations, reproductively isolated
> from other similar groups such that exchange of genetic material cannot
> occur (the species barrier). Most species cannot interbreed with others;
> those that can, typically produce infertile offspring. This biological
> concept of the species cannot be applied to fossils, or to organisms that
> do not reproduce sexually. These species are defined on a comparative
> morphological basis.
Thanks for the info, this does clear things up a little bit. After
re-reading the scientific thing that Joel linked to, it appears that
biologists have indeed flip-flopped in recent years -- a decade or so ago
they said that all yeasts were S. cerevisiae, and now in more recent years,
they're saying, well, the lager yeasts really are a different species. The
funny thing is, our yeastie buddies mostly reproduce asexually, but the
species line is drawn at where they are able or unable to produce fertile
offspring by sexual reproduction. It's sort of like, who cares, but then
again, if biologists are currently adamant that lagers and ales really are
different, then who am I to argue. So I stand corrected.
--
Dave
"Just a drink, a little drink, and I'll be feeling GOOooOOooOOooD!" --
Genesis, 1973-ish
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Date: 18 Aug 2006 08:31:37
From: The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty
Subject: Re: Ale vs. Lager
|
David M. Taylor wrote:
>
> I'm sure many people know this while others do not, but, it is possible to
> brew lagers with ale yeasts. In fact, homebrewers and pros alike have won
> ribbons and awards for their beers using ale yeasts in lager recipes. Is
> this really possible? Under the right conditions, with the right yeast
> strains, you betcha.
I've won some awards this way -- however it should be noted that success
here depends largely on style, and requires a little luck. Typically,
beers that exhibit that typical European-malty presence right up front
(say bocks, dunkels, doppelbocks) are difficult (if not impossible) do
do this way, although I know people who claim to have had sucess with
oberfests (I'll believe it when I try one). I have had some luck with
both dry pils styles and Schwartzbeir (although the latter was probably
a little over the top for the style).
Yeast strain is important as well -- you need a very neutral ale yeast
that will tolerate relatively low temps. US-56 is a nice choice for this
kind of thing.
--
(Replies: cleanse my address of the Mark of the Beast!)
Teleoperate a roving mobile robot from the web:
http://www.swampgas.com/robotics/rover.html
Coauthor with Dennis Clark of "Building Robot Drive Trains".
Buy several copies today!
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Date: 21 Aug 2006 11:55:52
From: Denny Conn
Subject: Re: Ale vs. Lager
|
"David M. Taylor" wrote:
> The only fundamental difference between "ale" and "lager", IMHO, is
> fermentation temperature.
IIRC, lager yeast also ferments sugars that ale yeasts do not....
--------- >Denny
--
Life begins at 60...1.060, that is.
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Date: 21 Aug 2006 17:35:16
From: David M. Taylor
Subject: Re: Ale vs. Lager
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"Denny Conn" <denny.g.conn@ci.eugene.or.us > wrote in message
news:44EA01B8.B2C1B1E6@ci.eugene.or.us...
> "David M. Taylor" wrote:
>
>> The only fundamental difference between "ale" and "lager", IMHO, is
>> fermentation temperature.
>
> IIRC, lager yeast also ferments sugars that ale yeasts do not....
Right you are. I was missing a piece or two from the puzzle, see another of
my posts.
--
Dave
"Just a drink, a little drink, and I'll be feeling GOOooOOooOOooD!" --
Genesis, 1973-ish
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Date: 18 Aug 2006 02:55:16
From: Scott Sellers
Subject: Re: Ale vs. Lager
|
Tony <theworldwillendin30days@mail.com >:
>Is the only difference between an ale and a lager the following?:
>1. Yeast type
>2. Fermentation temperature
Lagers are typically lagered for weeks or months, ales are not.
Lagers are different in derivation, and in history, from ales.
Ales usually have "fruity" notes, lagers don't. With exceptions,
ales are more associated with the UK, where lagers are more
associated with the continent, Germany in particular. One could
probably say that certain hops are much more closely associated
with ales, and some with lagers. The same could be said for
grainbills.
Lagers and ales: way different, both beer.
Scott S
--
Scott Sellers
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Date: 17 Aug 2006 19:32:33
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Ale vs. Lager
|
On 17 Aug 2006 09:42:17 -0700, <theworldwillendin30days@mail.com > wrote:
> Is the only difference between an ale and a lager the following?:
>
> 1. Yeast type
> 2. Fermentation temperature
Yes, although both of those things make a really big difference in the
final beer.
> If so, could I take a recipe for a lager, substitue an ale yeast and
> ferment at 60 - 72 degrees F (I found that temperature range for ales -
> not sure if it is accurate...) and produce an ale? Thanks.
Yeah, it would be an ale. It wouldn't be the same beer as the lager
version though. IE, don't expect it to taste the same as if you had
really done a lager.
John.
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Date: 17 Aug 2006 11:28:37
From:
Subject: Re: Ale vs. Lager
|
I would say the only real difference is the yeast type. Some beers are
fermented with top-fermenting yeast ale temperatures (or even below
norm) and then cold-conditioned. These are hybrids (eg. Cream Ale,
Koelsch, Altbier, etc.) that are designed to taste similar to lagers
while still being an ale. California Common is fermented with a special
lager yeast strain, but at ale temperatures.
So to answer your question, yes you can certainly take a lager recipe
and ferment it with an ale yeast. The result will certainly be
different than the lager version and the fruitiness that the ale yeast
provides may be out of style for what you want though. Cold
conditioning your ale can help produce a pesudo-lager but might leave
behind some ale flavours. Maybe try a Koelsch or Alt yeast.
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Date: 18 Aug 2006 05:12:40
From: MarkMc
Subject: Re: Ale vs. Lager
|
I think the point has been missed that Lager isn't a style of beer, but
in fact a process.
Lagerring is based on the the german word for store, and is basically
leaving the beer to rest for a period of time in very cold conditions.
Ale vs beer: in the days where hops weren't universally used to add
bitterness to balance beers, the word "Ale" was made with hops and
"beer" wasn't (or was it the other way around). Even barrel sizes for
"Ale" and "Beer" were different at one stage in history! these days
the terms are a bit fuzzy, and there doesn't seem to be any real
distinction. However, here in the UK, the word "Ale" gives the
impression of top fermented brews, and "Beer" to generic lagers,
kindof....
The true distinction to what the OP is asking, I think has to do with
top or bottom fermenting yeast strains, and it is my understanding that
bottom fermenting strains are in fact different (although very similar)
to top fermenting strains, and hence the difference in naming.
As well as temperature and yeast, also certain hops, such as Saaz tend
to be associated with Pilsners and their ilk, whereas Goldings are
generally associated with top fermented beers, but of course, that's
the beauty of craft brewing, use what you like, where you like - there
are no rules!
Also water/liquor composition, perhaps is different for 'lagers' than
it is for 'ales'? Although really that just boils down to the grist
composition and hitting the right pH in your mash.
Thinking about it some more, you could make a 'lager' or an ale from
the same grist. 100% pale malt. The difference would be made in the
hopping, and fermentation.
Regards,
Mark
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Date: 17 Aug 2006 22:47:02
From: Tony
Subject: Re: Ale vs. Lager
|
> > Is the only difference between an ale and a lager the following?:
> >
> > 1. Yeast type
> > 2. Fermentation temperature
> >
> > If so, could I take a recipe for a lager, substitue an ale yeast and
> > ferment at 60 - 72 degrees F (I found that temperature range for ales -
> > not sure if it is accurate...) and produce an ale? Thanks.
>
> The only fundamental difference between "ale" and "lager", IMHO, is
> fermentation temperature. There has been some recent debate that suggests
> lager and ale yeasts are not actually different species, but one and the
> same. The difference between the two are that lager yeasts have become
> specialized over the centuries to ferment well at low temperatures, whereas
> ale yeasts usually tend to go dormant at low temperatures. But before
> lagers came along, all anyone ever did was warm fermentations with wild
> yeast, which is all the same stuff, Saccharomyces cerevisae (sp?). Lager
> yeasts were just the specialists at lower temps. Call it survival of the
> fittest, natural selection (except in this case, it was unnatural
> selection because people were purposely cellaring the beer as it fermented).
> That is the only real difference.
>
> What Scott Sellers said in another response about ales tending to be more
> fruity, and lagers being more often associated with Germans and whatnot, is
> historically
> true. However, the differentiation of what is truly an ale and truly a
> lager is much more fuzzy nowadays, when it's becoming commonplace to make
> ale-like lagers (steam beer), or very clean ales (kolsch or Scotch ale), as
> another fellow mentioned. Is a steam beer a lager, or an ale, or both, or
> neither? Personally, I'd say it's more like an ale than it is a lager.
> Nevermind that it uses a yeast that was originally intended for lagers.
> It's still beer yeast, and it's fermented warm, so it sure ain't a lager,
> even if it uses lager yeast. The word "lager" means, to store, as in, to
> keep it in a cool cellar for a long time.
>
> I'm sure many people know this while others do not, but, it is possible to
> brew lagers with ale yeasts. In fact, homebrewers and pros alike have won
> ribbons and awards for their beers using ale yeasts in lager recipes. Is
> this really possible? Under the right conditions, with the right yeast
> strains, you betcha.
>
> I believe the line between lager and ale will continue to become fuzzier,
> until eventually, maybe another 300 years down the road, perhaps everyone
> will just call it "beer" and be done with the "ale" vs. "lager" argument.
> Beer is beer. Some styles are traditionally fermented cool, and some warm,
> but they all use brewer's yeast, and they all end up making beer.
>
> Don't even get me started on the argument of "top-fermenting" vs.
> "bottom-fermenting" yeast. What a load of... yeah. Don't get me started.
>
> --
> Dave
> "Just a drink, a little drink, and I'll be feeling GOOooOOooOOooD!" --
> Genesis, 1973-ish
Dave,
Thanks for the information, but I have to ask..., what about the top
vs. bottom fermenting thing? Everything I read about ales and lagers
always mentions that top/bottom thing... So, what say you?
Thanks,
Tony
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Date: 18 Aug 2006 07:18:03
From: Steve/Aus
Subject: Re: Ale vs. Lager
|
"Tony" <theworldwillendin30days@mail.com > wrote in message
news:1155880022.511680.251050@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> Thanks for the information, but I have to ask..., what about the top
> vs. bottom fermenting thing? Everything I read about ales and lagers
> always mentions that top/bottom thing... So, what say you?
>
> Thanks,
> Tony
>
IMO, forget it. Lager yeasts ferment comfortably at low temps while ale
yeasts do not. (Texts define lager yeasts as bottom fermenting). More to the
point, lager yeast can ferment glyceraldehyde and melibios while ale yeast
can not and ale yeast can metabolise ethanol while lager yeast can not.
This is information I gleaned from technical papers on the net and is not
from a trustworthy source - although I have no reason to disbelieve it. How
much these chemicals affect the final product, I don't know.
Steve W (in Aus)
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Date: 18 Aug 2006 21:46:03
From: David M. Taylor
Subject: Re: Ale vs. Lager
|
"Tony" <theworldwillendin30days@mail.com > wrote in message
news:1155880022.511680.251050@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>
> Thanks for the information, but I have to ask..., what about the top
> vs. bottom fermenting thing? Everything I read about ales and lagers
> always mentions that top/bottom thing... So, what say you?
It's another load of crap, an old wives' tale, a myth that will just never
die. Yeast don't just ferment at the top of the beer, and they don't just
ferment at the bottom of the beer. In fact, they do the best job of
fermenting when they are swimming around, suspended WITHIN the beer,
regardless of whether the beer is an ale or a lager. The only reason they
call it top-fermenting or bottom-fermenting that I know of is that perhaps
ales have a more active krausen, with the appearance of more yeast floating
on top, while with lagers the krausen is more subdued and there may be more
yeast chilling out on the bottom of the fermenter. But the fact is, the
fermentation is occurring WITHIN the beer, not just the top or the bottom.
A better way to put it might be to say "cool-fermenting" and
"warm-fermenting", but even then, there's so much crossover and in-between
these days that you can't necessarily draw a line there either. Where do
you draw the line? At fermentation temperature of 55 F, maybe it's a lager,
but at 56 F, is it an ale? Pick a number. Who the hell knows. It's all
semantics. Beer is beer. I like beer. I don't care if it's ale or lager.
It's all beer.
--
Dave
"Just a drink, a little drink, and I'll be feeling GOOooOOooOOooD!" --
Genesis, 1973-ish
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Date: 19 Aug 2006 10:17:17
From: The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty
Subject: Re: Ale vs. Lager
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David M. Taylor wrote:
> "Tony" <theworldwillendin30days@mail.com> wrote in message
> news:1155880022.511680.251050@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>
>>Thanks for the information, but I have to ask..., what about the top
>>vs. bottom fermenting thing? Everything I read about ales and lagers
>>always mentions that top/bottom thing... So, what say you?
>
>
> It's another load of crap, an old wives' tale, a myth that will just never
> die. Yeast don't just ferment at the top of the beer, and they don't just
> ferment at the bottom of the beer. In fact, they do the best job of
> fermenting when they are swimming around, suspended WITHIN the beer,
> regardless of whether the beer is an ale or a lager. The only reason they
> call it top-fermenting or bottom-fermenting that I know of is that perhaps
> ales have a more active krausen, with the appearance of more yeast floating
> on top, while with lagers the krausen is more subdued and there may be more
> yeast chilling out on the bottom of the fermenter. But the fact is, the
> fermentation is occurring WITHIN the beer, not just the top or the bottom.
> A better way to put it might be to say "cool-fermenting" and
> "warm-fermenting", but even then, there's so much crossover and in-between
> these days that you can't necessarily draw a line there either. Where do
> you draw the line? At fermentation temperature of 55 F, maybe it's a lager,
> but at 56 F, is it an ale? Pick a number. Who the hell knows. It's all
> semantics. Beer is beer. I like beer. I don't care if it's ale or lager.
> It's all beer.
>
The top/bottom thing really refers to how the yeast flocculates after
fermentation is complete -- as David points out all fermentation takes
place within the wort. It pretty much HAS to, after all. Traditionally
many ale strains had a tendency to flocculate at the top of the beer as
fermentation completed ("top-croppers"), and lager yeast had a tendency
to fall to the bottom. Thus the top-versus bottom fermenting thing.
With all the modern strains available, however, this distinction is
really begiining to fade, as there are plenty of ale strains that don't
floc at the top.
The real distinction between ale and lager yeasts is that lager yeasts
can ferment at much lower temps, producing lower amounts of esters and
other byproducts in the process. I believe lager strains also consume
maltotriose or some other sugar, which implies they *can* be slightly
more attenuative. There are ale strains that can ferment cool (down to
the mid-50s, albeit very slowly), but lager strains can generally go
significantly lower than that, producing fewer byproducts in the process
-- not always a good thing, of course. Just depends on what you were
shooting for.
--
(Replies: cleanse my address of the Mark of the Beast!)
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Buy several copies today!
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Date: 21 Aug 2006 14:17:24
From: John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Subject: Re: Ale vs. Lager
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On Sat, 19 Aug 2006 10:17:17 -0500, <mikey666@666swampgas.666com > wrote:
> The top/bottom thing really refers to how the yeast flocculates after
> fermentation is complete -- as David points out all fermentation takes
> place within the wort. It pretty much HAS to, after all. Traditionally
> many ale strains had a tendency to flocculate at the top of the beer as
> fermentation completed ("top-croppers"), and lager yeast had a tendency
> to fall to the bottom. Thus the top-versus bottom fermenting thing.
>
> With all the modern strains available, however, this distinction is
> really begiining to fade, as there are plenty of ale strains that don't
> floc at the top.
Definitely. I think of it more as a "traditional" definition than anything
else. There are very few real top cropping yeasts these days (only a
couple strains that I'm aware of). IMO, the real diffences between ale
and lager yeasts are temp tolerance, by-products, and what types of sugar
they will ferment. It's not really a "top vs bottom" thing anymore.
John.
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