| |
Main
Date: 17 Sep 2007 15:36:13
From: Randall Nortman
Subject: Screw-top glass bottles and pressure
|
I've joined up with the anti-plastic crusaders, but I want to
bottle-condition to a nice strong (champagne-like) fizz and not worry
about bottle bombs. So I've been wondering about how to regulate
pressure in glass bottles. There are nice caps (mentioned here
recently) for plastic bottles that build in a pressure regulator, but
I don't think the threads would fit glass bottles, even screw-top
glass bottles. I was thinking that maybe I could use screw-top glass
bottles -- the kind that some wines are now coming in, and also
non-alcoholic sparkling fruit juices, mineral water, etc. -- and just
occasionally twist the lids slightly open to bleed off a little CO2
and also judge how high the pressure is. I might even get fancy and
fit a steel pressure release valve onto one of the screw caps. I
wonder if the screw caps themselves are a bit of a fail-safe, since
they seem a bit flimsy and might blow off before enough pressure
builds to make the bottle itself explode.
Has anybody tried anything like this? Will those screw caps (and
bottles) hold a good amount of pressure? Anybody have other
suggestions?
TIA,
--
Randall
|
|
| |
Date: 17 Sep 2007 23:30:47
From: Bob F
Subject: Re: Screw-top glass bottles and pressure
|
"Randall Nortman" <usenet8189@wonderclown.com > wrote in message
news:13et7ndfor9bs45@corp.supernews.com...
> I've joined up with the anti-plastic crusaders, but I want to
> bottle-condition to a nice strong (champagne-like) fizz and not worry
> about bottle bombs. So I've been wondering about how to regulate
> pressure in glass bottles. There are nice caps (mentioned here
> recently) for plastic bottles that build in a pressure regulator, but
> I don't think the threads would fit glass bottles, even screw-top
> glass bottles. I was thinking that maybe I could use screw-top glass
> bottles -- the kind that some wines are now coming in, and also
> non-alcoholic sparkling fruit juices, mineral water, etc. -- and just
> occasionally twist the lids slightly open to bleed off a little CO2
> and also judge how high the pressure is. I might even get fancy and
> fit a steel pressure release valve onto one of the screw caps. I
> wonder if the screw caps themselves are a bit of a fail-safe, since
> they seem a bit flimsy and might blow off before enough pressure
> builds to make the bottle itself explode.
>
> Has anybody tried anything like this? Will those screw caps (and
> bottles) hold a good amount of pressure? Anybody have other
> suggestions?
Champagne bottles or grolsch bottles or beer bottles are designed for pressure.
Wine bottles are not. Pick them up and feel the difference. Use the appropriate
bottles and be careful about bottling at the right time with the right prime,
and everything should work right.
Bob
|
| | |
Date: 18 Sep 2007 14:12:14
From: Randall Nortman
Subject: Re: Screw-top glass bottles and pressure
|
On 2007-09-18, Bob F <bobnospam@gmail.com > wrote:
>
> Champagne bottles or grolsch bottles or beer bottles are designed for pressure.
I have wondered, actually, if grolsch/swing-top might be the safest,
not just because of the heavier glass but because the top might be a
sort of pressure regulator. I imagine that if a lot of pressute built
up, the wires would stretch/flex a bit and the cap would raise up and
allow some gas to escape. I have seen this effect in wire-bail
canning jars, and it doesn't even take that much pressure. Has
anybody ever had a swing-top bottle explode on them, or heard of one
exploding?
Speaking of wire-bail canning jars -- maybe that's the way to go,
rather than bottles. (I'm thinking of the ones with glass lids and a
rubber seal, held down by a wire bail mechanism a little like
swing-top bottles. It would be a bit odd to pour the brew out of a
jar, but why not? I think they might be a little *too* willing to
vent gas, though, and I wouldn't get to the level of carbonation I'm
after.
--
Randall
|
| | | |
Date: 18 Sep 2007 17:11:08
From: Derric
Subject: Re: Screw-top glass bottles and pressure
|
> Speaking of wire-bail canning jars -- maybe that's the way to go,
> rather than bottles. ...
Remember, canning jars are designed to contain a vacuum... NOT pressure.
I have no idea how strong canning jars would be with internal pressure,
and I wouldn't recommend trying it unless you can find some reliable
source of data proving it... remember, they may only decide to blow up
when you are releasing the bail ...
I'd stick with beer, champagne, or plastic (PET) "soda" bottles (or soda
kegs) that are meant to hold pressure. PET bottles probably hold the
most pressure, short of kegs, and they are easy to feel and release slow
pressure build-up.
I know you talked about reasons for possible variable, unpredictable,
carbonation levels. However, I think that if you waited long enough
in an airlocked primary fermenter, the remaining variations would be
quite small and very slow acting. You should still be able to predict
your carbonation level pretty well and stay in normal limits by normal
priming practices. You could tell over time if your carbonation level
was continuing to increase slowly and take action then - refridgerate,
open and recap bottles, etc.
(Note that champagne bottles may require a different capper if you use a
wing capper - their necks are thicker. One or two brands of wing capper
actually have a swing-out adjustment for neck size...)
For wildly variable, unpredictable pressure, get a stainless steel soda
key and fit it with a pressure gauge (and emergency pressure release)!
Nothing short of that is safe!
Derric
|
| | | |
Date: 18 Sep 2007 16:56:32
From: Ebbe Kristensen
Subject: Re: Screw-top glass bottles and pressure
|
Randall Nortman wrote:
> I imagine that if a lot of pressute built
> up, the wires would stretch/flex a bit and the cap would raise up and
> allow some gas to escape.
I'm afraid this will happen in your imagination only :-)
> I have seen this effect in wire-bail
> canning jars, and it doesn't even take that much pressure. Has
> anybody ever had a swing-top bottle explode on them, or heard of one
> exploding?
Remember what the unit for pressure stands for: psi = Pounds per Square
Inch.
Since a typical canning jar lid is a lot bigger than a a typical swing top,
the force on it is a lot bigger with equal pressure in the respective
containers. Also, on a canning jar (at least on those we have here in
Denmark :-) the lock and the hinge are opposite each other, i.e. the lid has
two fastening points. On a swing top the fastening wires are spaced more
evenly because the diameter is so much smaller so it more or less has four
fastening points.
Ebbe
|
| |
Date: 17 Sep 2007 20:11:38
From: Scott P
Subject: Re: Screw-top glass bottles and pressure
|
Lactose, which is an unfermentable milk-sugar, can provide the
residual sweetness you seek. Just add it at bottling time. However,
since you are using mixed cultures of yeast and bacteria, it is quite
possible that the bacteria you are introducing to your brew may
ferment the lactose, too.
Champaign bottles are designed to hold higher pressures...without
verification I have read they can hold up to 70 psi.
Why not just giving whatever you are fermenting an extended stay in a
secondary fermenter, or even tertiary fermenter, to let the "bugs" do
all of there work. Then, when it is bottling time, you could prime
and add a more predictable yeast for bottle conditioninbg. Good luck!
I'm particularly terrified of bottle bombs. Seventeen years ago,
before I fully understood the importance of things like good
sanitization, I brewed a batch of slime molds and bottle bombs...they
left glass embedded in the walls of the pantry where the beer was
conditioning!
Cheers,
Scott P.
Brewing in Star, Idaho
|
| | |
Date: 17 Sep 2007 23:34:00
From: Randall Nortman
Subject: Re: Screw-top glass bottles and pressure
|
On 2007-09-17, Scott P <scottphillips1@hotmail.com > wrote:
[...]
> I'm particularly terrified of bottle bombs. Seventeen years ago,
> before I fully understood the importance of things like good
> sanitization, I brewed a batch of slime molds and bottle bombs...they
> left glass embedded in the walls of the pantry where the beer was
> conditioning!
No doubt, I am taking this seriously. If I can't find a reasonably
safe way to do my wacky experiments, I just won't.
--
Randall
|
| |
Date: 17 Sep 2007 15:54:36
From: Scott P
Subject: Re: Screw-top glass bottles and pressure
|
Hi Randall,
A better, and safer, solution would be to go ahead and use glass
bottles, but fully ferment your beverage so the residual fermentable
sugars are consumed by yeast, then prime with the correct amount of
sugar (corn, inverted sucrose, or even DME). Careful measurement and
good sanitation will help you prevent bottle bombs and yield
predictable and consistent carbonation.
I'm a fan of using champagne bottles for beverages with higher levels
of carbonation. Sunday buffets from upper-scale restaurants are a
great source for lots of bottles; so are wedding receptions.
Here's a link to an online carbonation calculator:
http://hbd.org/cgi-bin/recipator/recipator/carbonation.html
Cheers!
Scott P.
Brewing in Star, Idaho
|
| | |
Date: 17 Sep 2007 18:13:15
From: Randall Nortman
Subject: Re: Screw-top glass bottles and pressure
|
On 2007-09-17, Scott P <scottphillips1@hotmail.com > wrote:
[...]
> A better, and safer, solution would be to go ahead and use glass
> bottles, but fully ferment your beverage so the residual fermentable
> sugars are consumed by yeast, then prime with the correct amount of
> sugar (corn, inverted sucrose, or even DME). Careful measurement and
> good sanitation will help you prevent bottle bombs and yield
> predictable and consistent carbonation.
Yes, that's good advice, except for a couple of cases. What if I want
residual sugar, but I don't want to pasteurize or add chemicals to
kill the buggers? I can let fermentation run out, prime with a little
more than I need, cap it, take a wild guess about when enough
carbonation has developed, and then refrigerate and hope for the best.
In that sort of situation, I would really like to have a failsafe
mechanism to prevent explosions if I get it wrong.
Also, I'm generally experimenting with wacky stuff, like wild
fermentations (mixed yeast/bacteria). It's hard to know for sure when
fermentation has really finished -- when you have a mixed culture,
sometimes you can enter a state where the organisms are just switching
from one mode of metabolism to another, or the previously dominant
organism has peetered out but there's another strain that's been lying
in wait for the right conditions and is just starting to hit its
8,stride. And priming calculators aren't usually expecting lactic
acid bacteria to be present, either.
> I'm a fan of using champagne bottles for beverages with higher levels
> of carbonation.
Are those more or less explode-proof? Will the corks blow before the
glass does?
> Here's a link to an online carbonation calculator:
> http://hbd.org/cgi-bin/recipator/recipator/carbonation.html
That's a great link, thanks. I've been looking for something like
that. But for the reasons above, it doesn't completely solve my
problem.
I suppose that leaving lots of head space would help, right? It would
at least increase the margin for error.
--
Randall
Perhaps my problem is actually that I'm patently insane.
|
|
